DSG vs. Manual

[Justin Fox]

This thread had to happen sooner or later. Might as well be sooner!

Discuss!

[Capercat]

The title should had been "Issues with DSG vs Manual" it would be a one sided debate. haha

[Pharkus]

I like playing with my stick.

I thought the manual would be the cheaper option both initial purchase cost, maintenance and replacement.

[Frenchie]

I have always had a manual transmission until I married my wife :)
Our last car was car auto and our R32 is DSG
Apart from my Megatron-ic unit to be replaced in a few weeks, I love my DSG esp with my Capristo - oh those downshifts are so sweet !!

Love the fact that I have 2 clutches - one already loaded and ready to fire missile
the change of gears are ( was, up until I got hit by Megatron ) seamless.

It will be interesting once warranty runs out though !

Overall VW have done great. Would I buy DSG again most likely.

[defaultx]

I've always loved manual but the DSG was too good to pass up. The sweet sound on gear change and the fact you can go from regular auto daily driving to a full sport mode that can change gears almost instantly was the selling point for me.

[Howie]

I've bought 3 cars so far with DSG (one is PDK)... Awesome. Do I miss manual? Yes. Enough to go back? F-NO... because I actually drive my cars everyday, the traffic in and around town drives me insane. I would be certifiable if I had to do it with stick!

[Cam]

Manual all the way for me. Perhaps if I lived in the city with stop/start traffic I'd go for a dsg but luckily for me I don't haha!

I've driven a dsg (in a 77TDI MKVI Golf) and I didn't find it all that wonderful. Yes, the shifts were quick but it did funny things down low. Jerked a bit when taking off, and even lurched forward when I had it in reverse a couple of times despite having my foot on the accelerator. I'm guessing the dsg setup is probably much tougher in the GTI/R32 than a standard Golf but I still prefer manual. Its so much fun to drive.

Although I will add, when Rob demonstrated launch control in his r32 I was pretty blown away by what it could do.
:D

[Tinto]

I've had two DSG cars now (GT Sport and now the Pirelli).
I love the paddles, love the blip downshift in sports mode, love the fart between changes when driven in anger and love that I don't have to take my hands off the wheel. Hillstart is cool too - something that I didn't have in the GT, but do have in the Pirelli.

The only downside I've encountered with DSG becomes more apparent on the track when you're flat out all the time and you want it to behave like a manual in terms of holding a gear.
Without a reflash you can't/don't hit the limiter, as it self preserves and shifts up.
It is disappointing when you want to hang onto the top end of 2nd in a corner and it drops you into 3rd.
Fortunately there's usually enough torque to pull you out in 3rd (was even true in my GT), but when you end up trying to grab 2nd again and your 'even' clutch has already lined up 4th, you really feel the lag as it backtracks.
You can't tell which gear you're in from feel, so you can get a bit flustered by looking at the dash display. Ideally the display would switch to a full screen MFD number when you switched to sports mode so you could use your peripheral vision to see your selected gear.

On the other side... I left work at 4pm today so I didn't have to drive home in my manual car in heavy traffic (twin plate clutch horror).
Wouldn't have bothered with the DSG... but in retrospect that means my manual got me home to see my family earlier. :)

If the S15 came with a double clutch box i'd have bought that model.

[Paul_OH]

Do I miss manual? Yes. Enough to go back? F-NO... because I actually drive my cars everyday

That sums me up totally. This is my first self-shifter (I won't dare call it an auto) and whilst far from perfect has enough pluses to keep me in 2 pedal cars for years to come.

[JohnnyG]

I have always had a manual transmission until I married my wife :)
.

Likewise same scenario, for me The MINI Cooper S with paddle shift & VW R32 DSG where the only option as I wanted a performance car that drove like a manual & Mei Ling wanted an auto
Otherwise I probably wouldn’t be on this forum I would have had a JCW Mini Cooper S

PS the city stop/start traffic would drive insane in a manual

[JohnnyG]

I like playing with my stick.

Hey keep it clean >D

[Justin Fox]

those downshifts are so sweet !!
I knew a few people would say this, but don't you feel like it's a little "fake". I love getting a heel to toe downshift perfect in a manual car. I almost live for it when I drive a manual. It takes a whole lot of feel and being in the zone to be able to hammer the brakes late and do the perfect 7000rom heel to toe to stop in time for a bend. It's almost like dancing, or art. Nothing feels better that getting it right when your driving in a spirited manner. In a manual car I heel to toe almost every drive.


The only downside I've encountered with DSG becomes more apparent on the track when you're flat out all the time and you want it to behave like a manual in terms of holding a gear. You can't tell which gear you're in from feel
100%. If I was to get a DSG I'd somehow get someone to help me make a HUGE LED monitor to let me know what gear I am in. A lot like the V8 super cars, and other race cars with the same style of gearbox. I feel the gear indicator on the screen is too small. It needs to be HUGE!


I've bought 3 cars so far with DSG (one is PDK)... Awesome. Do I miss manual? Yes. Enough to go back? F-NO... because I actually drive my cars everyday, the traffic in and around town drives me insane. I would be certifiable if I had to do it with stick!


PS the city stop/start traffic would drive insane in a manual

I hear this and I agree with it HEAPS. I've had the choice all along. Manual or auto to get to the post office, or the mall. I mostly choose the auto as I get there without thought. Without pain. Hop in the car, turn it on and I am at my destination.

Is that fun though? I'm not sure. I do agree you might not want to have fun in a car ALL the time.

On another note. What about revving for fun, feeling connected to the accelerator pedal is super important to me. What about blipping the throttle for fun a lot like a Harley Davidson rider does when either slowing down, or getting ready to go at the lights. If I had a Capristo exhaust or a a Ksg like Suga I'd want a manual to get the most out of my sound. I'd clutch in a LOT and give it a blip every now and then just for the fun of it. Slowing down at lights, getting ready for the green, shifting up into gears even. Blip shift, blip shift both up AND down.

I'm torn. I am in the middle. DSG has proven it's the future. DSG has praise from heaps of respected drivers all over the world. It's PROVEN 100% that it is faster than a manual in a sprint. No one doubts this any more. That's a HUGE feat.

I still come back to the perfect manual heel to toe downshift. It takes skill to do and it's 100% more rewarding than simply flicking a lightweight paddle.

PS: Don't get me wrong. I love DSG. I respect it. I wish all manual cars had an auto/DSG function too. That would be perfect?!

[G-rig]

I've always like manual too, and seems like the less troublesome option/liablility with the VW's..

Although would like to get a DSG next time perhaps to see what all the fuss is about. But have heard that people got bored with it once you get sick of the paddles.

If you drive in traffic it would be the go but depends why you buy it.. I still love ripping through and nailing the gears. The downshifts would be a little less awkward with DSG but you can still blip it for down changes in 6MT.. Brakes are for slowing anyway.

I'm also torn. would be slightly better economy with DSG but more boring.. it's just the jerkiness and hesitation that could be better.

DCT from BMW should be a lot better than the SMG crap!!

[10d]

I miss my manual sticks too!
The only reason I got the DSG is because I got stuck in traffic plenty of time.
Then I grow to like it.

Justin, I don't think you can do heel toe in the Golf tho. It cut out the accel input once you hit the brake. Unless you chip it.

[Justin Fox]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuoZeuSgEj4
Yes I heel to toe like this on the street, it's fun, no?

[Justin Fox]

Justin, I don't think you can do heel toe in the Golf tho. It cut out the accel input once you hit the brake. Unless you chip it.
You can't be serious?!

[JohnnyG]

Yes but you've got to concider the wife if she don't want to drive a manual, then no amout of pushin and shovin is guna change her mind .....AND I want DINNER & SEX >D :D :p

[G-rig]

^I'll have to try that on the way to work, as well as some double clutching =).

[Justin Fox]

AND I want DINNER & SEX >D :D :p

Hey keep it clean >D


^I'll have to try that on the way to work, as well as some double clutching =).
Practise makes perfect! Brake late, you will be forced to hit the brakes harder then and that will allow you to heel/toe nicely. It's best to learn at a circuit/track as it's quite rare that you bury the brakes deep enough to get your heel deep enough on the accelerator pedal on the street. But once you learn it you have it for life.

[Howie]

but don't you feel like it's a little "fake"

I suppose, but not really... I don't think F1 'feels' fake...

DSG has it's flaws. It's new tech and slowly the market is adopting it, with the better systems being adopted at the higher end (except for BMW, theirs is rubbish). The planetary slushbox auto found in the C63AMG is a revelation, showing what a traditional auto can STILL do.

You didn't have enough time to get to know the PDK in the 911... that, as a 'DSG', absolutely rocks. I find that the R32 normal mode a bit too 'sedate' and sport too 'aggressive'. The PDK offers 3 modes. Normal, sport and kidney-rupturing-pop-a-cog FAST.

[Justin Fox]

Agree that the DSG in Suga's R32 feels too slow and in sports mode auto it feels aggressive but I can't control it?

Just curious with F1 and paddle shift, don't they still use a clutch? And blip manually? I thought they did?

[Howie]

No idea, really... Maybe some cars have them just for launch as launch control is outlawed?

[Justin Fox]

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/9688/p1070836jd7.jpg
2 pedals. You are right Howie. I still think it's rather sad. Surely you have more control over downshifting in a manual than a DSG though? EG: I am sure a DSG won't let you downshift at times where a manual will.

[Howie]

DSG won't let you downshift if there's a chance you will bend valves... It's a good thing! :p

[Justin Fox]

PS: I stress that I am totally in the middle on this one! I am torn between a DSG and manual for my next Golf. I had an Alfa 147 Selespeed. I loved it! I had an MR2 with a clutchless manual gearbox too. Great downshifts and horribly slow upshifts. I had a Jazz with CVT and also a Jazz with manual and preferred the manual as it was faster off the lights and more involving. I also drive Suga's car a lot. My V35 Skyline also has a 6 speed tiptronic. I don't bother though as it has no paddle shifts and I feel dumb using the gear shifter to change gears. I'm very undecided.

[Howie]

I'd say go for the manual... Or at least try it. Having been spoiled by Type R gearboxes I thought it a downgrade to go to any other manual this side of $100k. So DSG for me. Or, keep the ED to satisfy the manual urges, get it out of your system.

Solution: have 2 cars, one with each: manual & DSG.

[Justin Fox]

ED is gone Howie and damn heel to toe in that was rockin'!

[elisiX]

IMO DSG is the way to go. That is unless you are purely a weekend driver and do not have to battle the daily commute - which I do.

The lag on take off is not the best (I remember having the same thing in my Selespeed 147), but a tap and then press of the accelerator does the trick usually.

[jazzle]

go manual, as you said you drive suga's car ALOT and you have tiptronic on the v35 so you need a manual in your garage.

+ i doubt you will keep the car long enough so does it really matter if DSG is the future?? :lol:

[G-rig]

Hard to say if manual is worth it any more with XDL (on the GTI that is, i wouldn't bother with it on the Golf R being AWD), ie not as fun as the MK5 manual transmission where u are in full control.
Although you can put more power through 6MT without expensive DSG upgrades etc.

[Justin Fox]

What's XDL?

[G-rig]

What's XDL?

Its the new Electronic Diff... the gears show up on the Multi Function Display in the manual cars and have heard of it even changing gears for you, not sure about that but you can't just gun it like conventional manuals. It tried to second guess the power and losing traction from what i heard.

[Justin Fox]

That seriously sounds strange!

[Capercat]

My way of thinking is, if I'm going to spend good coin on a "drivers car" then I'm going to want maximum involvement with the driving experience. When I first test drove the DSG GTI & then after the PDK Carrera S I couldn't help feeling I was being robbed from the experience. My solution to traffic/wife/girlfriend etc. etc. was I bought myself a cheap auto runabout for such duties.

Gear shift speeds is like spitting hairs, it's simply marketing, Porsche don't use PDK in their track/race cars GT3, GT2 and GT3 RS etc. yet they still win races. Double clutch boxes is brilliant technology & is here to stay! I guess it all comes down to what you want from a car.

[nath_mk6]

I'm not sure if the XDL can shift gears for you, my understanding is that its an extension of the ESP in that it detects wheel slippage and transfers the power to the correct wheel, reduces understeer etc.

As for DSG v MT, I own the DSG and have had a chance to drive Dereks APR'd MT Mk6 late last year. I hadnt driven a MT for while but have to say I was very impressed with the changes and smoothness of the gearbox.

For me it came down to the possibility of commuting in Sydney traffic and the need to allow the wife to drive it as she has never driven a manual, hence the DSG, but if I'd had the choice I think I wouldve gone for the MT.

[elisiX]

With you there Nath.

If I weren't driving in traffic mostly, MT for sure.

[Pharkus]

Maybe it's the size of my feet, but I can't seem to be able to heel toe as effectively in the R32 as I was in the Holden Astra. The pedals hung from the top of the foot well, as opposed to the accelarator coming up from the floor. It truly is satisfying turning a corner and using the heel toe technique to down shift and hit it perfectly.

But now with the pedal placement and whatever electronic interferrence I am not as competent to do it in the R32, basically given up as I can't get the foot in the right angle at play.

When I test drove the DSG it really felt seamless and was in fact very suited for driving on normal roads. I wouldn't track the car. However, as the car is rarely used as a daily commute in peak hour, there is just something so relaxing about have a good cruise on the weekends with manual.

[Justin Fox]

Forgot to mention. The brakes in the R32 Golf are SO grabby! That alone would make heel to toeing more difficult.

[Capercat]

We shouldn't kid ourselves, these cars are designed first for the street, then for whatever. This XDL gadget seems stupid in the 6MT, they should had gone mechanical although I haven't driven one, but I trust Whitejames review regarding it. VW are clever as they know 90% of their customers are only going to drive the car as a daily commute. They can then justify electronics taking over, as it looks good for safety cred.

[Nardi330]

also electronics stuff cost less to built (only R&D costs) while they can market these "benefits" and charge more $$ for them.

[Cam]

Justin have you driven a manual GTI before?

I'd say you need to test drive one first before making your decision. The manual gearbox is seriously fun.
:)

If I were closer to you, you could drive mine and get a feel for it. But I won't be in Sydney anytime soon unfortunately.

Pharkus summed it up so well in his last line, it really is relaxing cruising around on the weekend in a manual, getting back to basics with the car. You're so much more involved with the car driving manual and you know you have control over when it shifts etc.

[Justin Fox]

Not tried a Golf in manual yet. Not tried a GTI DSG either! I'll be sure to test a few cars before I lay the cash down.

[Howie]

Just like Capercat said, you might feel a little 'robbed' from the experience. I agree. But the compromise was worth it. Still, I love manual and that's why I'm going to order the 997.2 GT3. If you can't decide, just get both!

[Justin Fox]

I love manual and that's why I'm going to order the 997.2 GT3
My God Howzers........

[bwen]

I test drove a MKV GTI with a MT initially and was quite happy with the car, it was when I was still deciding between the GTI, XR5, MPS3, but I went to a different dealership and was offered a GTI Pirelli for a cheaper price than a standard GTI and they only come in DSG. I enjoyed driving the DSG even though this is my first AT car, I tend to spend at 2+ hours a day crawling through traffic at 10km/h anyway so it might have worked out the best for me :)

[Howie]

Oh i think it was a misunderstanding... I meant to say that I 'would' (if I could) order the GT3, u know have best of both worlds...

[Capercat]

Howie are you going to the northern gtg?

[G-rig]

It would be pretty hard to decide next time manual vs DSG (got manual now). Gladly i dont sit in traffic every day but always find 1st - 2nd change clunky or awkward on every day.

DSG would be a bit more economical too I imagine but take some of the fun away.

[Justin Fox]

Guys I just drove both the manaul MKVI GTI as well as the DSG MKVI GTI and the DSG is the winner hands down. It was so much more fun, so much more aggressive and the upshift are so much faster than Christina's R32 DSG. I loved it! The only thing I didn't like was how it upshifted for me from 1st to 2nd when I hit redline (a rev limiter would have been cooler).

I hate to say it, but damn VW make a horrible manual gearbox. It initially feels nice as it's notchy, which feels sporty, but on a drive I found the gearing to be too long on the manual and that made the car feel lagyy down low (not so in the DSG). The throw is also so long that you hit your fingers/knuckles on the centre console when going into 1st, 3rd and 5th not to mention the long throw makes you feel like you're driving a standard car/golf/luxury car.

I've praised manual all along in this thread because I assumed the manual in a GTI would be up there with say the gearshift on my old S2000. Very wrong. Not all manual gearboxes are made the same I suppose.

DSG all the way, especially on the MKVI. MKV owners really should try the DSG in the MKVI. When you're flooring it pedal to the metal and in higher rpms the upshifts are as fast as the downshifts. I'm MEGA impressed!

Pics and review here:
http://www.vwgolf.net.au/showthread.php?265-My-MKVI-GTI-test-drive-manual-DSG-comparo

[JohnnyG]

Hey Justin I would like you to test out my R32 un-moded and compare it to Suga's moded version see what you think, I feel the up/down shifts to be exceptionaly fast, wondering if moding changes things from factory default
PS Glad you liked the DSG

[Howie]

Guys I just drove both the manaul MKVI GTI as well as the DSG MKVI GTI and the DSG is the winner hands down. It was so much more fun, so much more aggressive and the upshift are so much faster than Christina's R32 DSG. I loved it! The only thing I didn't like was how it upshifted for me from 1st to 2nd when I hit redline (a rev limiter would have been cooler).

I hate to say it, but damn VW make a horrible manual gearbox. It initially feels nice as it's notchy, which feels sporty, but on a drive I found the gearing to be too long on the manual and that made the car feel lagyy down low (not so in the DSG). The throw is also so long that you hit your fingers/knuckles on the centre console when going into 1st, 3rd and 5th not to mention the long throw makes you feel like you're driving a standard car/golf/luxury car.

I've praised manual all along in this thread because I assumed the manual in a GTI would be up there with say the gearshift on my old S2000. Very wrong. Not all manual gearboxes are made the same I suppose.

DSG all the way, especially on the MKVI. MKV owners really should try the DSG in the MKVI. When you're flooring it pedal to the metal and in higher rpms the upshifts are as fast as the downshifts. I'm MEGA impressed!

Pics and review here:
http://www.vwgolf.net.au/showthread.php?265-My-MKVI-GTI-test-drive-manual-DSG-comparo

As per my previous post Justin, It was near impossible to find an equivalent gearbox to any Honda 6-speeder manual after I sold the DC5R for similar money to the R32. So it's slightly sad now that nearly all R&D into transmissions goes into dual-clutch technology.

PS.
I told you so :p

[satz]

I was a die-hard manual gearbox lover for the last 25 years, but finally got my 08 GTI with DSG.

Love it!


Except... the D mode sometimes can be sluggish as it tries to get to higher gears very quickly for the sake of economy


The S mode is a little pointless, except for a quick fang, as it keeps gears down too low! eg 4th gear at 80kmh cruise



Manual mode is great. Love the quick changes, the engine bark on shifting...just wish the tiptronic lever was the other way around (push for downshift, pull for upshift)

Find that my hand reaches more for the lever rather than the paddles...perhaps years of manual gear shifting?

:)

[bwen]

...just wish the tiptronic lever was the other way around (push for downshift, pull for upshift)

Find that my hand reaches more for the lever rather than the paddles...perhaps years of manual gear shifting?



Ditto on both points for me. I much prefer shifting with the gear lever but having the controls reversed a bit annoying for me

[technopato]

I use to love the way my Integra R sounded shifting up and down, that gearbox was so damn solid, i thought to myself there is no way in hell i would ever go "AUTO".. It took one test drive with DSG to turn me around in an instant along with the fact that wifey doesnt drive manual.. :p

I took my MKV GTi to Stage 2 with full APR TBE RSC Exhaust last week... The DSG now sounds sooooooooooooooooooooo much better! I thought that nice little thump shifting up was nice but now.. OMG!! Its totally transformed, i run the risk at sounding like a total arse but i honestly compare the upshifting sound to that of an F1 Sequential Shift on an F430 seriously!

It sounds absolutely amazing. >D

So for me at the moment, with a decision looming as to the upcoming purchase of another car, I wouldnt hesitate purchasing an R in DSG, dont care about the limits of the DSG as far as modding goes. The practicality of the DSG along with the fun factor wins me hands down...