View Full Version : Brakes problem
Hey guys
Had my rotors and pads changed about 7500Km's ago, and had the bake fluid replaced with some AP Racing stuff on the 5th March.
Yesterday at the track, after 2 15 minute session where I wasn't particularly pushing it, the brakes basically went. As I was driving the car up to the starting place for the 3rd session, I noticed the pedal just went to the floor, and luckily I didn't drive into the back of anyone. I opted to pull out of that session.
Found a mechanic, and we bled the front brakes, thinking maybe it had overheated, but this is unlikely after just 2 sessions, on a high quality fluid. After 7500km the pads would have been bedded in too.
After the fluid change, the brakes weren't quite as grabby as before, so last week, I went into the garage, and had the brakes bled slightly. This did firm up the pedal nicely, but the tech said there was no air when he bled the brakes.
Today, the brakes are still shot, drivable but I have to brake earlier and push the pedal a lot further.
Any ideas what may have happened?
Saad
silverbullet
26-04-2010, 05:21 PM
my advice seek a professional's advice coz brakes are your life. I assume you value your life.
YouSnooze
26-04-2010, 05:29 PM
When you had your brake rotors/pads & fluid changed did you get stainless steel (braided) brake lines fitted at the same time?? If not & you were always considering tracking your car, this may have been unfortunately overlooked. They give some extra peace of mind. Consider getting them done - they are not expensive (<$200). Agree with sliver bullet though - get an expert to check your whole braking system asap.
nope didnt get SS lines, but like i said, on oem stuff all day, got no fade.
I think a leak somewhere - going tomorrow to get it checked, hopefully a free fix as the shop may have done somethign wrong...
chris32
26-04-2010, 07:45 PM
Bad luck Saad, hopefully its a quick (and cheap) fix.
Yeah was very very upset to say the lease
kaitan
26-04-2010, 08:09 PM
my advice seek a professional's advice coz brakes are your life. I assume you value your life.
I agree with silvebullet... Hope everything works well for u soon. :D
HotColdBeer
26-04-2010, 09:11 PM
What pads were you running? I'd pull the pads and check 'em, highly likely you glazed (or roasted) them
Changing to SS lines affects only the feel, won't really be the cause of fade.
Are you loosing fluid? No? Perhaps an internal leak? Simple, at a stand still, apply pressure to the brake pedal - If it eventually sinks, you've got a leak - But I doubt thats the issue.
The ventilation around the stock brake setup isn't that fantastic - and the VWs are heavy, so You can cook your brakes in a relatively short time, in just 1 session even - depending on your driving style.
What pads were you running? I'd pull the pads and check 'em, highly likely you glazed (or roasted) them
Changing to SS lines affects only the feel, won't really be the cause of fade.
Are you loosing fluid? No? Perhaps an internal leak? Simple, at a stand still, apply pressure to the brake pedal - If it eventually sinks, you've got a leak - But I doubt thats the issue.
The ventilation around the stock brake setup isn't that fantastic - and the VWs are heavy, so You can cook your brakes in a relatively short time, in just 1 session even - depending on your driving style.
Dont think I have a leak, but i try pushing the pedal with the car off yeah so no brake booster?
I was running VW Racing pads. If I've glazed them, how to fix? And what causes glazing?
Frenchie
27-04-2010, 10:11 AM
Take it to the pro's saad - def needs to be looked at carefully.
Let's us know how you go.
Androo
27-04-2010, 10:13 AM
Are you getting any vibrating into the car? Personally it sounds like either the pads are not capable of handling extreme heat and are now glazed, OR the pads were never bedded in properly. It doesn't matter if you have done 50km or 10,000kms, if you haven't bed the pads in they won't be 100%. I would get after market pads like Hawks or EBC redstuff for track.
But i would definitely take it somewhere to be looked at.
Edit: What rotors are you using? are they at least aftermarket slotted?
HotColdBeer
27-04-2010, 10:47 AM
Dont think I have a leak, but i try pushing the pedal with the car off yeah so no brake booster?
With the car off, the brakes are not assisted (No brake booster) -so the pedal feels stiff.
The question is, when applying pressure, does the pedal sink to the floor after a while? If it does, you have a leak somewhere.
I was running VW Racing pads. If I've glazed them, how to fix? And what causes glazing?
Glazing occurs when pads get overheated and the resin holding the compound together hardens up. It can also occur if you don't bed the brake pads in properly.
The way to remove glazing is to remove the affected material on the pad face, you may also need to machine your rotors.
I once glazed a set of pads in just 3 laps !!! (Those pads then lasted me only 12 laps thereafter! and scored my rotors) - and that was when I didn't get the chance to bed the pads in - car was only ready the day before the competition.
You really need to take the pads out to check and inspect the system - if you're not sure about doing this yourself, you need to take it to someone who knows - I'd recommend VSport or Competition Friction - There's another supposedly Race brake shop in Sydney I'd totally stay away from though.
Edit..Additional info I had from a website (I can't remember where)
Above all else, there are two main factors to consider when choosing high performance brake pads for your car - their coefficient of friction and operating temperature range. Put simply, the coefficient of friction is the frictional resistance (drag) of the pad against the rotor - which is very important when you want to rapidly slow the rotor (and therefore the car). The higher this number is, the greater the pads' ability to grip against the rotor. As a guide, a good pad usually has a co-efficient of friction of around 0.45-0.5 when it's working at the temperature where it's most suited.
Brake Pad Bedding In
Brake pads and rotors should always be initially bedded to condition the pads and rotor surfaces for racing use. This "bedding in" procedure will result in greater performance, longer wear, and less likelihood of rotors cracking due to thermal shock. To bed in brake pads, start by pumping your brakes at a very low speed to assure proper brake system operation. In a safe location, make a series of progressively harder stops from moderate speeds until some brake fade is experienced. Allow brakes to cool while driving at moderate speeds, avoiding use of the brakes. The brake pads should now be properly bedded in.
Pre-Bedded Pads
Some manufacturers (such as Wilwood) have a bedding in service that is performed on a computerized dynamometer to ensure a consistent bed across each pad set. This is generally only available on extra-high performance brake pads, where "ready-to-race" pads are valuable during an event.
Having a set of pads with the correct temperature range is also critical. But it's very important to select a pad that has both the right minimum and maximum temperature ratings. For example, there's no point in fitting pads on a street car that will only really start working at over 100 degrees C - 'cos what happens when you pull out from your house and need to stand on the (cold) brakes? They don't work very well. Further to this, it's a good idea to use fairly low temperature pads on a road car or else excessive pad wear, noise and abnormal rotor wear may result. On the racetrack, however, brake temps of around 600 degrees C (often more) are generated at the rotor - and it's imperative that the pad can maintain effectiveness under such demanding conditions.Otherwise, a major loss of braking power will result as the pad "glazes" and simply slides over the disc rather than biting against it (which isn't what you want at high speeds!).
Dropped the car into VW Centre today. There gonna change the fluid and see what happens.
Im running DBA slotted rotors.
I dont think the pads are glazed, and glazing would mean you still have pedal feel. The pedals just go to the floor, so Im thinking boiled fluid now.
Pharkus
27-04-2010, 02:05 PM
Dropped the car into VW Centre today. There gonna change the fluid and see what happens.
Im running DBA slotted rotors.
I dont think the pads are glazed, and glazing would mean you still have pedal feel. The pedals just go to the floor, so Im thinking boiled fluid now.
You've already advised that you put in "good" fluid last time. You would still have to check for glazing, but the only other remaining variable would be leakage of brake fluid and you should specifically have VW Centre test for that.
scotty1991
27-04-2010, 02:22 PM
Or your brake lines ballooned
Got phone call -
They flushed the fluid, drove the car, got it hot, and it went to shit again.
The pads and discs are glazed at the front. They suspect that the pads may be too hard for the discs, these are the pads: http://www.volkswagenracing.co.uk/Golf%205%20Pages/Golf%20Brake%20Pads.html
I think i may not have bedded them in properly. They are going to machine the pads and rotors, then I will try and do a proper bed in, and see how it goes. Failing that, I'll replace the pads.
Saad
Androo
27-04-2010, 03:05 PM
You seriously need epic bedding for those pads. If you don't get hot spots on the disc your failing. You should leave those pads for track and get yourself some normal street pads.
Recommendations for good street pads?
what do you mean by epic bedding? They're advertised as fast road so if you bed them in right they should be ok?
Saad, perhaps you should ask the professionals if they can assist in getting it right. Specifically about the setting these up to work for your street/track applications.
Maybe they are not appropriate for street use.
If you are committed to putting your car on the track, then saving up for a proper BBK might be a good idea.
I did see someone selling a nice BBK on OzAudi around a week ago, with Boxster S Brembo calipers IIRC, hardly used. (~$1600AUD). Sold very quickly. Worth checking the UK and US sources for these as it seems you are regularly frying your brakes on and off track. ;)
Anthony might be a good source, too, considering he says he want through a set of rotors and pads in one session. :)
Got phone call -
They flushed the fluid, drove the car, got it hot, and it went to shit again.
The pads and discs are glazed at the front. They suspect that the pads may be too hard for the discs, these are the pads: http://www.volkswagenracing.co.uk/Golf%205%20Pages/Golf%20Brake%20Pads.html
I think i may not have bedded them in properly. They are going to machine the pads and rotors, then I will try and do a proper bed in, and see how it goes. Failing that, I'll replace the pads.
Saad
Pharkus
27-04-2010, 03:36 PM
Agree with the above Saad. If you haven't chosen the correct combination of discs and pads for "normal" street use, then you are putting yourself and others at risk. For road use, you are unlikely to ever get your brakes up to temp and sustain them.
YouSnooze
27-04-2010, 03:39 PM
Changing to SS lines affects only the feel, won't really be the cause of fade.
I was not suggesting they were the cause of the fade - rather pointing out that anyone that is going to track their car should upgrade to SS lines for peace of mind because they will not bulge or split/leak when compared with OEM lines under the extremes of track punishment. Can you think of any racing outfit that runs standard [non-braided] lines with their brakes?? Since your rotors are off Saad - you should get this done so you never have to worry about any line issues in the future. Good luck. Re: "epic bedding" - there is plenty of opportunity here in the Blue Mountains late at night - lots of long, steep straight descents with minimal traffic. Highly recommend Hawk HPS as street pads.
HotColdBeer
27-04-2010, 03:50 PM
Got phone call -
They flushed the fluid, drove the car, got it hot, and it went to shit again.
The pads and discs are glazed at the front. They suspect that the pads may be too hard for the discs, these are the pads: http://www.volkswagenracing.co.uk/Golf%205%20Pages/Golf%20Brake%20Pads.html
I think i may not have bedded them in properly. They are going to machine the pads and rotors, then I will try and do a proper bed in, and see how it goes. Failing that, I'll replace the pads.
Saad
I honestly think you just overdrove the pads, thats all. You were probably braking harder than you though you were which is common on the track (It sounds like your first time on the track yes?). Those pads don't sound like track pads to me, and as you described, Fast Road.
As long as they've checked the pads, machined off the glazed portion (on both the pads & Rotors) and also ensure that the compound hasn't actually turned to ash..LOL
I think you'd be fine.. :-)
Example of burnt brake pads..LOL
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h186/e240_a/BrakePads.jpg
I'm pretty sure the service guys wouldn't let you out if the system was less than satisfactory
Will take a look at some epic bedding and see how I go
The plan it to upgrade to the VW Racing BBK, made by AP Racing I believe: http://www.volkswagenracing.co.uk/Golf%205%20Pages/Golf%20Brakes%20Kit.html
However, in the tracking section at Golfmk5, the hardcore guys state that you dont need a BBK - track pads, good fluid, and maybe even removing the metal shields will mean verylitte or no fade. But a BBK looks very bling :)
The Porsche BBK kits on ECS look very nice also.
I was looking also at upgrading to R32/S3 Brakes, however they weigh a lot more and will add more rotating mass lowering acceleration and handling etc. If Im gonna upgrade, they need to be lighter than stock
I honestly think you just overdrove the pads, thats all. You were probably braking harder than you though you were which is common on the track (It sounds like your first time on the track yes?). Those pads don't sound like track pads to me, and as you described, Fast Road.
As long as they've checked the pads, machined off the glazed portion (on both the pads & Rotors) and also ensure that the compound hasn't actually turned to ash..LOL
I think you'd be fine.. :-)
Example of burnt brake pads..LOL
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h186/e240_a/BrakePads.jpg
I'm pretty sure the service guys would've
Not the first time, but first time in a while, and as th track was a bit wet (it wasn't but it had been raining) I was being overly cautious.
Androo
27-04-2010, 04:36 PM
Recommendations for good street pads?
what do you mean by epic bedding? They're advertised as fast road so if you bed them in right they should be ok?
My friend (WRX) recently got some race pads installed and they weren't bedded in properly which caused all sorts of problems. He had to get the brand new rotors machined and the mechanic had to bed the brakes in because my mate didn't do it properly. It's a harder compound so you really need to put heat into them opposed to normal street pads. When he came back after a 5 minute bedding session the front brakes were smoking and had hot spots in them.
Race pads can be rather dangerous on the road as some have mentioned, they need a fair bit of heat in them before they start to become sticky were as normal pads tend to brake well straight away.
I haven't had to change pads yet on the GTI, but on my previous rides I've used EBC and they are pretty good for the street.
HotColdBeer
27-04-2010, 05:15 PM
I was not suggesting they were the cause of the fade - rather pointing out that anyone that is going to track their car should upgrade to SS lines for peace of mind because they will not bulge or split/leak when compared with OEM lines under the extremes of track punishment. Can you think of any racing outfit that runs standard [non-braided] lines with their brakes?? Since your rotors are off Saad - you should get this done so you never have to worry about any line issues in the future. Good luck. Re: "epic bedding" - there is plenty of opportunity here in the Blue Mountains late at night - lots of long, steep straight descents with minimal traffic. Highly recommend Hawk HPS as street pads.
I hear you, but if you only do one or two track days a year and are penny pinching, its not really necessary, the stock lines are pretty hardy... BUT, personally, I would change them cause, 1) it looks good 2) Improved braking feel
As for reliability - I've known and seen braided lines fail - even the branded ones, so be careful about which ones you choose. On my other car, I make up Earls lines by myself - just get the parts from them but they are NOT street legal
OK Gentleman
Had rotors machined all good. My pads are fucked. I need new ones asap. I think because they are fairly hard, I didn't bed them in, and I cooked them, so even machining them didn't work.
Called my mechanic (not the VW centre), who does all my little bits and pieces - he replaced my pads before. He'll supply me with EBC Redstuff front pads (Same as my rears) for wholesale price (not at liberty to say, but most retail stores markup is 50%) and install them for me - hopefully tomorrow whilst I wait.
I was also told DBA rotors are shit - designed for commodores and falcons apparently. Any truth in this?
I will be upgrading to SS lines soon. Whats a good source for them?
I was also told DBA rotors are shit - designed for commodores and falcons apparently. Any truth in this?
I will be upgrading to SS lines soon. Whats a good source for them?
Not ECS - at least not their ones up until now. You have probably read bad stuff about them, anyway.
Just search the UK and US forums. There are some very positive stories on SS lines from some UK forums. You are probably already familiar with them.
Good luck. Maybe you could have had them shipped at the same time as your UK wheels. :)
Good idea - got a lot of stuff coming then! Wheels, studs and nut conversion, and possible a momo hub and sparco steering wheel and brake lines!
HotColdBeer
27-04-2010, 06:35 PM
I was also told DBA rotors are shit - designed for commodores and falcons apparently. Any truth in this?
I don't think they're shit, but I don't think they're any better than, say, RDA - Most commonly with rotors issues, driver's f..k up, but its easier to blame the product. LOL.
Shush, but I use Taiwanese brake components and they hold up very well against abuse - but many write them off simply because they don't have the Euro snob factor...
Sweet, all good then. Hopefully have new pads tomorrow, and Ill make sure i follow th ebedding in procedure!
Panman
27-04-2010, 10:52 PM
If you are going with SS brakelines make sure they are compliant with ADRs (or equivalent) - one of the experts will be able to say with certainty, but non-compliant brakelines will kill your insurance stone dead in any accident where braking is a factor (which let's face it is most of them)
Ill be getting the good ridge ones - are these compliant anyone?
http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/Performance/Brakes/Brake_Line_Kits/Goodridge_Stainless_Brakeline_Kit_Stainless_Fittin gs/618/0/51170/44983
Androo
28-04-2010, 10:13 AM
I had EBC greenstuff all round on RDA slotted rotors on my 330ci. 325mm on the front and 320mm on the back and it completely changed the feel for the car, it pulled up like you hit a wall.
Never had a problem with RDA, as long as you have a mechanic do the work and bed them in properly you should be fine. Redstuff is good, it won't be as hard as what you previously had on but will do the same job if not better.
SMH: Faulty brakes killed young driver"
http://media.smh.com.au/national/national-news#
Tinto
28-04-2010, 03:58 PM
The plan it to upgrade to the VW Racing BBK, made by AP Racing I believe: http://www.volkswagenracing.co.uk/Golf%205%20Pages/Golf%20Brakes%20Kit.html
I think those might actually be Project Mu, saad.
Either way they'll be a nice piece of kit. I believe JonnyC had them on his Ed30 + S3.
Any plans on balancing things out at the rear with some R32/S3 ventilated rears?
mshl1979
28-04-2010, 04:52 PM
Going to hi-jack this thread then... does anyone have any recommendations on a decent of slotted rotors? apart from the usual RDA / DBA local stuff.
Had a look at the brembo disks but man they are expensive.
Androo
30-04-2010, 12:51 PM
Going to hi-jack this thread then... does anyone have any recommendations on a decent of slotted rotors? apart from the usual RDA / DBA local stuff.
Had a look at the brembo disks but man they are expensive.
If you're not planning to spend a lot then RDA/DBA are good stuff for road and track (a couple times a year). Nothing wrong with local stuff.
mshl1979
30-04-2010, 04:33 PM
Yeah.. I got a quote from brakedistributors. But there is a special on ECS tuning for the Schwaban slot front discs might end up going for those?
Wishing Saad good luck in the quest for bigger, better brakes. :)
Hopefully a 4-pot APR/Brembo 320mm will be able to be adapted to your GTI. :)
GBJ-R32
03-05-2010, 02:36 PM
hey guys
going to hi jack this thread
has anyone used QFM brakes
I've bought front and rears for the r32 ??
VTECMACHINE
04-05-2010, 02:06 AM
DBA4000's are rubbish. I had them and cracked them in 2 session in my DC2R. Apparently, the newer ones are half decent though, regardless I wouldn't go near them.
I've done a heap of testing with Japanese pads and Local pads, and Japanese Rotors and Local rotors (from $1000 PMU rotors to $160 RDA rotors). Bendix, EBC and all that crap is absolute rubbish. People will say they are good, cos they don't want to pay the money for good quality stuff - but I guess sometimes these are better than OEM gear. Not sure if Endless makes pads for the Golf, but if they do get a set of MX72's on there, and you will love them.
I've used Dixcel/AP Racing pads (Type M and Z), they were okaaayyy. Brig full race pads were way too hard for $1000 Project Mu Rotors, and the same thing happened to what has happened to you. I just swapped my pads over to my Endless SSS street pads, and voila!
Anyways, what i'm trying to say is, just cos it says "race pads" on the box, they are not always good. Caliper strength and how many pistons doesnt really matter - it all comes down to rotor and pad combination, and it all depends on your cars weight etc. In regards to Braided Lines, firstly, hardly any are street legal, and secondly they are only there if you are getting your brakes really really hot. Stock lines expand and air can pass through the walls of them leaving air in the lines, where as the stainless braided lines have less of a chance doing this. Most people won't even notice a difference.
YouSnooze
04-05-2010, 07:25 AM
In regards to Braided Lines, firstly, hardly any are street legal, and secondly they are only there if you are getting your brakes really really hot. Stock lines expand and air can pass through the walls of them leaving air in the lines, where as the stainless braided lines have less of a chance doing this. Most people won't even notice a difference.
Goodridge are ADR approved - just buy them. You don't have to buy the ones that aren't street legal!!! You've just described why SS lines are better than stock lines - so for around $200 why wouldn't you buy them if you are planning on tracking your car?? Cheap insurance if you ask me.......... Most people won't even notice they have airbag, /ESP or ABS either - but it's nice to know they're in the background to help you.
I second that. The Goodridge braided lines are ADR approved. Nothing worse than having your brake pedal all the way to the floor and have no stopping powa.
VTECMACHINE
04-05-2010, 12:58 PM
Not sure about the VW lines, but the stock DC2R lines were perfect, and didn't fade after 7 x 10 min sessions at Wakefield @ 1.12 sec a lap. I guess it depends on the lines etc. Some cars just need them, this may be the case with the MK5's. I'll find out for myself in a while :)
Got the EBC Redstuff pads fitted all good. They were very bity at first but after getting them hot and a nice bed in procedure, the pedal is now soft initially, and then firms up, so like a curved graph.
I was gonna jump on AP's R32 brakes, but Ilektronic got before me, and Im researchign the 4 pot brembos
Spoke to APR - its a no go, they wont be a direct fit, and Im not sure if I want to dick around with machining stuff. Emailed Brembo to be sure though
stephen8512
07-05-2010, 02:43 PM
so the brembos wont be a direct fit?
so the brembos wont be a direct fit?
Nope. I'm not sure how much work would be involved in getting them 100% but that kind of work can quickly spiral out of control cost wise. Ive contacted Brembo to see if I have any option
Big Yellow
07-05-2010, 04:33 PM
Nope. I'm not sure how much work would be involved in getting them 100% but that kind of work can quickly spiral out of control cost wise. Ive contacted Brembo to see if I have any option
Dean's brembo kit was a direct fit. He has 18" wheels tho.
This brembo kit is for an Audi though the one I was looking at
The brembos are a direct fit for the Golfs. Just check the website.
10d I did, but the ones that I was looking at secondhand were for a B6 Audi A4, not a VW
10d I did, but the ones that I was looking at secondhand were for a B6 Audi A4, not a VW
Ah yes. If that's the case the brackets need to be modified.
Is that a difficult/time consuming/expensive job?
Is that a difficult/time consuming/expensive job?
It needs to be precise. Price is depending on the machinist. But you need a good one. It's your anchor to the road. Good luck
Robby_jai
17-05-2010, 11:37 PM
hmm missed this thread entirely... so how did you go with your brake problems saad :) fixed it ???
suggestion... i wouldnt track on EBC Red stuff.. absolute rubbish :) i have a f@#ked up set in my garage to prove it :) i agree with everything vtec machine says :)
DBA rotors are rubbish!! you know my battles with DBA rotors on the R32 and eventually giving up on them and going the AP racing lit. if you intend to track your car i would probably suggest spending the money and buying the proper stuff.
to the poster who said... he bought some taiwanese stuff... they're either D2, or XYZ brand... are the ones i can think of and mate... have you heard stories of the bolts completely shearing off under track conditions... etc .... i wouldnt go near them with a 10foot pole if i intended to track my car :)
Thanks Robby.
It weird I'm having problems again.
The rotors were machined so they should be oK. I've heard a lot of ppl say that DBA are good, and bad
Anyway after getting the pads changed, Immediately, the brakes worked again, very touchy, and then I went to bed them in. After 10 hard braking efforts, I could smell the brakes and pedal went soft.
All good, however te next day the pedal was still a bit soft. Basically, after bedding them in, the brakes weren;t as touchy, but i can still lock the brakes and engage the abs. The brakes are a lot softer at first, with soft pedal, and then it firms up, but Im not sure if its meant to be this way.
I though maybe the fluid was gone, but gave it a good bleed, but the fluid was fine.
Is this a cause for concern, or is it just how the EBC redstuff are? Maybe they only operate properly once brought up to temperature?
We took the pads out and had a look, and they are perfect too so not sure what it could be. THe red coating for bedding in has gone too and the pads are nice and not glazed at all.
Any ideas?
what rotors would you recommend? Are RDA any good?
Robby_jai
18-05-2010, 12:48 AM
u have changed the pads.. machined the rotors.... and changed the fluids.... right ? have u changed the brake lines ????? if you cook the brake fluids under track conditions.. it can expand and flex out your brake lines..... your lines can flex under extreme braking... and they wont go back to the original shape.. which is reason why you feel the brake feel is a bit long.
has the mechanic checked the brake calipers to make sure that the brake calipers and pistons are working properly??
if u are using ap racing brake fluids they are fine... it takes a fair bit for them to boil up.
the ebc red stuff will operate at most temps... i had them before ... i just found that they completely broke up and fell to bits after 1 aggresive track day... not very reliable but not the cause of your issue i think.
the dba rotors and rda rotors are the same from what i heard but not 100% sure ... rotors are not the issue u have right now ... the issues are either brake lines, brake master cylinder flexing or the brake boosters....although i would stay away from them.. they crack quite easily ... as vtec machine has also experienced.. and several other people i know using them.
i dun think you have a brake fluid leak... one quick way to test if you have loss of pressure is to turn the car off. pump the brakes until the pedal goes stiff.. now HOLD that pedal firm. IF it sinks slowly you have a leak some where.
if you dont... then i would be changing brake lines and looking at the booster and master cylinder.
see how you go with that.
Robby_jai
18-05-2010, 12:54 AM
to answer your questions about rotors.. i would be using brembo or ap racing... they are specifically designed for track use and the higher grade metal is built to withstand the constant heat expanding and shrinking cycles... and also... has higher resistance to cracking and warping...
how ever if u shock the rotors.. eg... run into a puddle of water after a track session or step on the brakes for a period of time after you finish a session u will fry crack and warp ur rotors.
dont get me wrong.. these brand rotors will eventually crack ...they are not bullet proof.. but built to higher tolerances.. and will take punishment for much longer before they fail..
Thanks Robby. Its weird though cos when the pads were brand new before beddig in the pedal was very stiff. I might try changine the brake lines and see how I go. I think the brake calipers are working properly, I just dont see how anything could have failed in the process of bedding in.
Theres no leak, Ive checked that.
How much would a new master cylinder cost? And is there a way to easily check if its the culprit?
Didnt know AP Racing/Brembo made discs to use with the factory brakes. Do you have a source?
OK I spoke tthe VW centre, he recommened I have the system pressure bled at ACT brakes, before i go changing master cylinders etc!
For all of your posting about your brake troubles and your recurring problems, have you seriously considered what Robby is recommending, Saad?
Saving up for a specialist BBK.
Since I sent you the info on the person selling (I think not yet sold?) his old APR/Brembo 320mm Stg 2 set for Audi B6, did you contact APR about what was required to fit to your car?
Since I would expect it has been done before, it might have been a decent option. You might have been able to get it and then get the larger 332m or whatever size rotors you really want. :)
Otherwise, become Anthony's bestie so that he wants to sell you his Scirocco brakes when he eventiually buys a real BBK! :p
Yeah I have considered it and that is the plan! The key is 'saving up' and I want reliable brakes till then!
I called APR and they said it wouldn't fit, and still waiting to hear from Brembo
However, a lot of the hardcore US track guys on Golfmk5 use stock brakes, and say race fluid, good pads, SS lines and removing the dust cover thing is all you need for good repeatable solid braking for up to 30 min track sessions.
I will look into better rotors, and as much as I would love to get the Audi brakes, I don't want any further issues with them fitting!
The part number for the VW version of the same brake is different, which leads me to believe there may be small differences.
Furthermore, when I was running OEM brakes components, I didn't have ANY problems, so I think this is just a function of the wrong pads and discs.
Anyway I'm getting a pressure bleed by a brakes specialist done, that should fix it up in the meantime hopefully!
I should have said reliably better than stock :)
At the end of the day, I dont want to make bad decisions and spend more money than I need to. I dont want to buy some brakes, and then have to spend $800 gettting than adapted to fit the car if you know what I mean. Apparently the Audis have a slightly different hub offset, so not sure how easy that would be to rectify
Im gonna chat to the brakes specialist about the audi brakes see what they say.
Well, at least you tried that route, Saad, which is good in case there was a way to option it to fit.
I agree that once you learn the source / reason(s) for the continuing problem, you can try to work around it or proof your brakes against it.
You're taking the right approach. Just make sure you drive with a margin until you know that they are 100% effective again. Not worth risking your life or the lives of others!
I called Derek at European autotech just then and had a chat. He said a few things:
1. the 320mm rotor isn't much bigger than the factory ones, and wont be that much better despite being 4 piston.
2. Mk5 GTI rotors are almost flat, whereas the Audi rotors have a more of a hat, so I would need different rotors
3. I would need a new mounting bracket, and would have to see if Brembo could supply it. If not, aroudn $1000 to get some custom stuff made up
4. If it was a direct bolt on, it would be very very worth it, but not so much, seeing as they aren't that big, and fitting will be a pain
Currently waiting in waiting room whilst brakes are being pressure bled.
I think Ill get the VW Racing ones from the UK, hopefully the pound stays week!
Saad
OK Im on drugs or something
When the tech drove it, he said the brakes were fine, really good infact. Pressure bled it, and no difference. He said the brakes were perfect and that "don't drive a commodore or falcon cos they have much softer and worse than this"
He recommended I drive another GTI just to see
Well, are on drugs, saad? :)
Say no to drugs, Saad (and yes to a BBK if you stuff up your brakes again). :p
Just for interest sake, could you find someone with R32 brakes on a GTI and compare your GTI, another GTI with factory brakes and then a GTI with the larger R brakes?
I suppose it's the fade resistance and lower operating temps you need - or to drive your car more gently! :p
I am not a professional speculator but keep my eye on forex trading trends.
Forex might be in a new phase of volatility if the EUR comes under sustained shorting. I suppose the EUR and GBP will likely fall compared to the USD for a while and the AUD will likely bounce up again once traders think that a RBA interest rate is imminent.
Yeah someone has R32 brakes in Sydney cant remember who though.
Hopefully this weekend someone will let me drive their GTI so I can finally confirm whether mine are ok or not!
And no Im not on drugs!
And are traders shorting large amount of the Euro?
stephen8512
18-05-2010, 08:34 PM
Yeah someone has R32 brakes in Sydney cant remember who though.
THat would be Kevin (rev 555). He bought AP's first set of R32 brakes as AP was upgrading the brakes on his R32 Twin turbo with HPA items
Robby_jai
19-05-2010, 01:44 AM
sheesh 1k to custom make a bracket for the brakes ??????? thats pricey buddy... my brake specialist V-Sport/Comp Friction can do it much cheaper and they use high grade metals to make it... my bbk uses custom bracket.. they are super light and super strong. i believe 10D is using the same brackets :) he also uses my guy :)
secondly rotors arent just rotors.. just because the brembo jobbies are similar size to your oem ones.. DOESNT mean its not better. it all comes down to the ventilation design of the rotors... and that design is VERY VERY important for heat management and dissipation.....and also the fact that it is slightly larger than oem... 312 vs 320.. that 8 mm still makes a huge difference more surface area = better heat dissipation.
no offense to derek.... but SAAD u really need to speak to a BRAKE specialist... not a tuning specialist... guys who only deals with one thing and one thing only... thats brakes.. call the mob at comp friction. they are in canberra...
im not sure why u wont call these guys or v sport. if cost is an issue mate.... save up some dosh and do the job properly.... dont do it half arse.. cos i can guarantee you..... other track users wont be too impressed with you if your brakes fail and u run up their back side cos ur brakes failed...
Tinto
19-05-2010, 02:39 AM
$1k for brackets is not nice.
What track days are you guys on that have 30 mins of solid track time?
That's longer than most pro level races, innit?
Most oem brakes would be baked after 6 laps or so (on any track) unless there is a decent straight for you to cool em off.
I had my GT brakes(same as GTI) smoking on a training circuit(RAC), but never on a more open circuit (barbagallo).
My last track night had 30+ laps at barbagallo broken into 5 laps/run, so never encountered fade as the staggering of runs is designed to keep your street car alive :)
Saad, Id suggest you trim off those dust / stone shields (will you need to heat wrap your lines?) and see if that keeps them cool for you. Seems to keep guys like Meat from golfmkv happy, and I believe he didn't bother with the r32 brakes after that easy mod. I haven't personally done it, so this is NOT experience speaking ;)
How you use the brakes will count for a lot too. I tend to squeeze hard on/off rather than trail it in too much.
30 min is a lot. I doubt that brakes would be the only problem. I know for sure my DSG won't hold up. Not to mention water and oil.
Serious mods would need to be done.
The Golfs are heavy cars too. I somehow manage to crack my 328mm Brembos on 1 track days. Could be manufacturing defect, but my rotors were glowing red that day. Got pics to prove too ;)
That is why I went and fit the bigger AP Racing BBK. Better safe than sorry.
G-rig
19-05-2010, 08:28 AM
I would have thought R32 brakes would be good enough for the occasional hit out on the track.. mine didn't show any sign of fade after 5 laps at QR but then again there are long lengths of straight (and i wasn't braking real late).
Wouldnt mind better ones on the GTI one day keen to hear if braided lines on the stock ones helps saad.
Some good advice here, sound like a BBK is the best solution (but not the cheapest). Just noticed that 10d and Robby's had problems with cracking so custom solutions may not be the best, or mix and matching stuff?
Greg, the brembos I got before was a kit, not custom. I'm running their pads as well.
Robby was running the PAGID pads on the DBA rotors and that pad maybe too strong for the DBA.
The R32 brakes on the GTI would do just fine, and removing the dust shield and running braided lines would be adequate for the ocassional track days.
Sorry guysn i regards to 30 min sessions, I was saying that guys like Meat etc seem to use OEM brakes with trimmed heatshields, good pads and SS lines, and trimmed shields for 30 min sessions, and dont have problems, so I should have no problems either. Not saying that I was doing 30min sessions!
Robby: I have spoken to comp friction - thats where i got my AP racing fluid from. The brake specialist in Canberra where I had them pressure bled yesterday (ACT Brakes) said my brakes felt 100% and i should drive another GTI cos I have a distorted perception of how the brakes feel!
Also how come you needed a custom bracket? Wasn't your BBK specifically designed for the S3? When I do buy a BBK, I would prefer to get one that specifically designed for the MkV, so I don't have to mix and match parts etc.
And money is always an issue (!), but as I have mentioned, I will be getting a proper BBK eventually, but would be nice to have brakes that can be used for the occasionally track day, pushing only to 70%, till then.
Also, these were the secondhand brakes I was considering:
http://www.goapr.com.au/products/brake_brembo_b6a4.html#Stage%20II
In your opinion, will they be easily adapted to the Golf? I'm thinking i would probably need different offset discs, which could drive the price up, which makes me consider these http://www.volkswagenracing.co.uk/Tuning%20General%20Pages/Brake%20Kit%20Overview.html with 352mm discs to the better proposition.
And finally, you gonna be down at AP's on saturday and at nationals on Sun? Would love to talk to you some more :)
G-Rig: It seems the R32 brakes are a decent option, but they are fair bit heavier than the GTI ones, and are still only single piston, so your better off saving up and getting a proper BBK.
Robby_jai
19-05-2010, 11:17 AM
ur not driving hard enough 10d if its only cracked ;-) only glowing red ??? thats not hard enough dude !!! ur brake pads need to be on fire !!!! :)
Robby_jai
19-05-2010, 11:29 AM
my big brake kit used a custom bracket to fit my car. V-Sport and the Engineers Bosnjack measured up my car and fabricated my brackets out of aeronautical grade aluminium. AP Racing dont have brackets specifically designed to fit the R32/S3 Brackets. Most AP kits out there with it... would be selling with brackets that have been custom made and added to the AP BBK Kit.
As for mix and matching parts.. mine wasnt mixed and matched.. my whole brake kit was specifically chosen to meet my needs.
If you speak to V sport they have specific brackets engineered for GTI. because they did 10d's car! they have all the measurement and trust me... they work. Bosnjack are the engineering firm that do a lot of fabrication work for V8 race cars and other race out fits. The Owner is an ex v8 racing car driver so he know's his stuff. and some one like V-Sport/Comp Friction wont use them unless they are top notch cos its braking you are talking about.
Personally if I were you on a budget.... stick with the rotors you have.... go a better brake compound and bugger off the EBC cos they are rubbish.. go a good braided steel line like Goodridge. Look at something like Ferodo, Hawks
Dump in very good high temp brake fluids. I use Brembo HT64 and that set up will successfully get you by until u are ready for your bbk.
i used the Pagid Race Pads, DBA 5000 Rotors, Good Ridge braided steel lines, HT64 Brake Fluids, ripped out the heat shields and that whole get up worked a charm on my very heavy R32 on track. Only reason why i didnt have them any more was they keep cracking after a whole track day. the pagids were too hard core on the DBA 5000.
Otherwise it stopped very well over and over and over again.
I thought you said DBA rotors are shit?
And as for V sport brackets, are they only for AP Racing brakes or will they suit brembos too?
Robby_jai
19-05-2010, 11:37 AM
G-Rig: It seems the R32 brakes are a decent option, but they are fair bit heavier than the GTI ones, and are still only single piston, so your better off saving up and getting a proper BBK.
mate one of the biggest misconception out there is the whole concept of number of pistons... thats actually not true... its actually the volume of the piston that you need to consider.
You could have 4 piston... and it may not have the same bite as a 2 piston jobbie because the two piston may have a greater volume than the 4 AS an example.
the additional piston is there to allow even force distribution across the entire pad profile to aid in better brake modulation and feel, aid in better brake pad wear and reduce the possibility of brake pad flex
the single piston in the R32 brake calipers are MASSIVE. and trust me that sucker stops!!! VERY VERY well on the R32
R32/S3 brakes may be the way for you to go if you want to do things cheaper.
no offense saad.. the R32 brakes abilities will far exceed your capabilities and abilities on track. in other words.. it would take a considerable amount of track driving and experience... to learn the art.. before you can take advantage of better brakes.... lighter wheels and brakes etc
so in other words.. if you chucked on better brakes and lighter brakes.. your lap times STILL wont reduce. sorry buddy
no point spending big until you know how to use every mod you put on to its max advantage!
No offence taken! I tried to jump on AP's R32 brakes but missed out!
I suppose the R32 brakes with good rotors and pads willbe aesome. However its a matter of if I waited a bit longer, I could get a proper BBK, which would look rather blingy too :)
G-rig
19-05-2010, 12:09 PM
G-Rig: It seems the R32 brakes are a decent option, but they are fair bit heavier than the GTI ones, and are still only single piston, so your better off saving up and getting a proper BBK.
Yeah that's true but can't really worry about weight if you are getting them much cheaper than a BBK (not sure how much they go for second hand). Agree it would still be better not to add weight and actually save some.
Its just a matter of finding a set - not worth doing it if your going to buy new, as they are $1000USD from ECS, plus shipping.
I need to find someone with an S3/R32 who is upgrading then. Also need to investigate the option for a custom bracket for the Brembo brakes
Saad
Robby_jai
19-05-2010, 12:30 PM
I thought you said DBA rotors are shit?
And as for V sport brackets, are they only for AP Racing brakes or will they suit brembos too?
they are shit.. thats why i dont have them any more.. they are shit because they keep cracking like crazy.. thats not to say the buggers didnt stop like crazy tho.
V sport can custom make any bracket you want. They will need your car.... and the kit you intend to buy measure it up.. get all the details and send it off to the engineers to fabricate. if its complicated the car needs to go to the engineers.
call john at v sport and ask him what the process are.
Yep just emailed v sport and comp friction showing the brakes Im considering buying and if they would fit etc. Lets see. But Robby, do you think Id be better off holding off and just buying a 352mm set?
Saad
Robby_jai
19-05-2010, 04:37 PM
if i am not mistaken the calipers can be used with bigger rotors.. so in future you can just upgrade the rotors. just check with john if that caliper set you intend to use can be used with bigger rotors specifically the 353mm ones.
if the answer is yes.. get the current set... and when you are ready buy the bigger rotors...
Nick also suggested that although buying new brakes seems more expensive:
"The new kit probably seems expensive, but at least you know what you are getting. Cost to replace pads and discs in the kit you are buying may quickly soak up the saving. Not really trying to sell you something, just trying to make you aware, buying second hand brakes can be a dangerous game.
A lot of Audi’s and VW’s do use the same platform, A3/S3 bits will definitely go on to a Golf, I believe A4 may be the same as Passat.
AP Racing kits tend to be better suited to the track. Generally the AP kits use calipers that have an internal dust seal, rather than the bellow style seal found in a Brembo caliepr, and most original equipment calipers. At high temps, these bellow seals will melt and therefore make themselves redundant, whereas the internal seals will keep working. On the road the performance is very similar. Both manufacturers use Ferodo DS2500 pads, Goodridge braided lines, and the highest quality alloy bells and brackets. AP Racing make 2 kits to suit the MkV, both are designed to fit inside the standard wheel, details as follows:
4 piston caliper over 330mm disc - $3725 inc GST
6 piston caliper over 330mm disc - $4200 inc GST"
I suppose that if i need to get new disc, pads and a mounting bracket, may not be worth buying the 2ndhand set
Robby_jai
19-05-2010, 05:28 PM
this guy is selling his brembo kit for 1200 aint a bad buy.
i dunno what model it is tho. http://www.ozaudi.com/forums/showthread.php?p=234085&posted=1#post234085
if you talk to john at v sport really nicely and tell him rob sent you and u were dead serious and plonked some money down... i reckon john could do you a fantastic price on a new brake kit.
They are the brakes i was looking at! I was considering getting them, but the problem would be adapting them to the Mk5, with brackets, and would prob need diff offset rotors too.
I think saving up some, and buying new may be the way to go. Still really like the look of the VW Racing brakes though, but if the brembos were a bit cheaper....just need to rock up with some cash!
Panman
23-05-2010, 11:11 AM
They are the brakes i was looking at! I was considering getting them, but the problem would be adapting them to the Mk5, with brackets, and would prob need diff offset rotors too.
I think saving up some, and buying new may be the way to go. Still really like the look of the VW Racing brakes though, but if the brembos were a bit cheaper....just need to rock up with some cash!
Saad try here: http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/f24/audi-s3-front-brakes-2007-audi-s3-200kw-good-upgrade-golf-gt-gti-44972.html
Guy is selling S3 brake kit which would be a straight bolt on, and should go under any wheels you are likely to put on a GTI (including the standard 17"s) be a good upgrade for the GTI standards (effectively an R32 kit).
Ill be getting the good ridge ones - are these compliant anyone?
http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/Performance/Brakes/Brake_Line_Kits/Goodridge_Stainless_Brakeline_Kit_Stainless_Fittin gs/618/0/51170/44983
Got a set the other day. Going on this Friday.
For those that run BBK, is it worth the extra $2k+ then say the R32 brake kit?
Personally I couldn't justify the price margin for day to day run about and possibly the odd track day down the line...
G-rig
23-05-2010, 08:22 PM
I don't think it's worth the extra unless you did do a fair few track days. People seem to be buying them for looks, but is nice not to add weight but the R32 brakes are worth it as an upgrade over the GTI ones IMO - go hard on spirited drives and for the odd track day.
If you could get BBK for $2k instead of 3k would be worth it.
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