Carbon Buildup - Your Solutions?

[zerogees]

Hey guys,

First post here, but have been reading since this site launched and drooling at everyone's GTIs.

Basically, I'm looking into getting a GTI myself. Considering both a well looking after MK5 GTI and the new MK6s. I'm aware of the little niggles which come with the cars, but only one really bothers me - the carbon buildup on intake valves. Since the FSI and TFSI engines are direct injection, the valves have no exposure to fuel which clean off the carbon buildup. The symptoms include poor fuel efficiency and perhaps misfires.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4773361
http://www.golfmk6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5495
http://forums.fourtitude.com/zerothread?id=3600027&page=1
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4433854

Is it a major concern hovering over the heads of the GTI owners out there? I know many people install catch cans but that doesn't eliminate the problem. Do some (or most) of you take it to a garage every XX km's to get it cleaned off? If so, how much would that cost per treatment?

Thanks in advance!

[Androo]

Sorry, misread the topic.

[zerogees]

The reason oil sludge occurs is because people follow manufacture service intervals. This has been covered so many times. Oil doesn't last long even if it's full synthetic oil it has a life span. Once oil starts to break down it will stop lubricating the engine and that's what causes sludge. Changing oil filter and using full synthetic oils changing at around 5,000kms - 7,500kms you won't have any problems. This doesn't just happen to VW and Audi, BMW are notorious with sludge as the intervals are every 25,000kms.

Will post a thread link from another forum... covers this topic.

Thanks for the quick reply, but I believe you've mistakened this for another issue.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1822253 This link covers what you've mentioned. What i'm asking about is carbon buildup on the intake valves. Sorry if i've created any confusion, but if you read any of the four forum links in my first post you'll see that its a completely different problem to the oil sludge you mentioned.

[Big Yellow]

All direct injection cars will have this issue regardless of service interval.

Best solution is a catch can and upper engine cleaner regularly.

[zerogees]

All direct injection cars will have this issue regardless of service interval.

Best solution is a catch can and upper engine cleaner regularly.

How much would an upper engine cleaner cost? And how often is regularly? Every 10,000kms?

[en.elle]

I haven't gone through the process myself but here is some more info posted by Seb

http://www.eurorevolution.com.au/forums/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=239&start=0

One of the last couple of posts was a clean done on Seph's Audi A3.

[Paolo]

what BY said, my mechanic cleaned my valves with Suburu intake valve cleaner. He now uses it for every service he performas because the amount of buildup is nuts, i think Tonys GTIs valves were pretty filthy when they did the k04 conversion as well

[ml16]

Would Subaru EUC be useful on TDi vehicles?

[Seph]

I haven't gone through the process myself but here is some more info posted by Seb

http://www.eurorevolution.com.au/forums/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=239&start=0

One of the last couple of posts was a clean done on Seph's Audi A3.

Following up on what Nick said.

I've owned my car since new, and have kept the engine stock, with the exception of the stage 1 GIAC tune for the majority of its life

Since new, have done 5000km OCIs on Castrol edge sport 5w30.
Car displayed symptoms of cold start hesitation (I wouldnt say it was an issue), when on cold starts it would take an extra crank (hold key for extra split second) for it to start.

@ 90k kms, seb tore it down, did:

Timing Belt, Water pump, major service, pulled head off and cleaned valves.

This is what the intake valves looked like:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4010/4263886643_3f11dcbb8f.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2744/4263888505_79093663b8.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4043/4263931777_b45c76e1e4.jpg

As you can see, obvious carbon issues, but perhaps not as bad as some of the documented cases in the US.

Also changed the cam follower at this point in time. Follower looked good, top layer of hardened coating was worn, but no sign on impending destruction

Car is now @ 101k km, running strong, and got 154.7 KW on the dyno last dyno day.

And as Stevie, en.elle, derek, and FFichiban will attest, I dont baby my car. Never did. All I do is regular oil changes.

Car has yet to miss a beat. Also recently put in a Forge catch can, and have been catching some smelly gunk!

[zerogees]

Thanks for the info guys!

@Seph & Paolo: How much does it cost you guys to go in and clean the valves each time? I'm just worried it'll have to be something I do on a half-yearly basis :S

[Seph]

Thanks for the info guys!

@Seph & Paolo: How much does it cost you guys to go in and clean the valves each time? I'm just worried it'll have to be something I do on a half-yearly basis :S


Firstly, you shouldnt need to do it on a half yearly basis.

Ive had the car 4 years, 101k km and have only done it once, in fact, had I not done it, I dont think my car would be significantly worse. (as I said, i only had slight cold start hesitation)

Secondly, Paolo's method is quite different, i believe his was a chemical based service, without removing parts. Those methods have not had significant tests tIo show effectiveness. (Blanket comment for Seafoam, BG service and Subaru Upper Head service or whatever they call it).

What I had done was more invasive, obviously effective, as we removed elements of the engine to get to the intake valves.

I cant tell you how much I paid, as I had it done with a major service, timing belt, water pump, catch can install, air con condenser/compressor replacement, amongst other things, i just figured if it was all going to be apart, it was as good as time as any. I would say consult with you mechanic/workshop for details.

My car has always been worked on by Seb, who is an independant VW/Audi tech who is quite popular amongst enthusiasts from Vortex, watercooled, MKV forums too. Happy to provide his details if you wanted to have a chat to him about it.

Hint to all, if using the "invasive" method to clean valves, be prepared to without the car for a little while (few days to a week depending on your shop). Some of the people in the states are using a walnut soft medium and blasting it, which is quicker. Most independent shops will probably not have this set up, so it can be a carbie cleaner + elbow grease job. Often the chemical compound/cleaner used needs quite a while to soak in, adding time to the cleaning process.

I know seb took quite a few goes to get mine clean, but I do know he's fairly anal rententive about doing that stuff right.

Good luck

[POLARBEAR666]

Subaru upper engine cleaner is the way to go.

Also, the catch can idea will make a HUGE difference. Fit that first, then bomb the car with upper engine cleaner and you should clear most of it out and not build up that much more.

[zerogees]

Awesome, thanks for all the info guys. Hopefully i'll be joining the ranks soon :)

[Seph]

Subaru upper engine cleaner is the way to go.

Also, the catch can idea will make a HUGE difference. Fit that first, then bomb the car with upper engine cleaner and you should clear most of it out and not build up that much more.

Polar, thanks for that, do you have any concrete info that the Subie stuff works well?

I wouldnt be surprised that it does, but would really like to see some before and afters (not marketing material), or at least substantial anecdotal evidence.

This can potentially save heaps of $ for heaps of members.

Eager to see what you find.

[ml16]

It's probably worth just buying a can yourself and having a go. IIRC it is around $10-14 from Subaru themselves. I will be going to Subaru/VW Osborne park this weekend myself so might try and pick up a can and have a go then.

Basically it is sprayed into the intake manifold (around half the can) and left to settle/seep in. Then start the car and apply some throttle (so it doesnt stall) at around 2000rpm and spray the rest of the can in. Once you finish spraying the can go for a decent drive to burn the rest of it off.

The instructions are also on the can i believe.

[Justin Fox]

I was at VW Village today and George loved the Forge catch can in my GTI and highly recommends one (a catch can that is).

He said he had a customer come in who had done 90,000kms and had done every single thing right, all the servicing he needed to do etc but his car would not rev at all. On taking apart the manifold George found so much carbon build-up it wasn't funny. Big job to fix which cost the customer a lot of money.

He also mentioned the Subaru cleaner to flush shit out.